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Why we shouldn't aspire to grammatical correctness

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:50 PM EDT
education, power, language, english, teaching, words, linguistics, grammar, mechanic, elitism, privilege, oxford-english-dictionary
By ScooterDMan

Dear Language Gods, For the sake of avoiding uncomfortable irony, please ensure the text to the left of this picture is syntactically and grammatically inerrant. Yours truly, Scooter. Graphic by ScooterDMan

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One of my most intelligent students, a senior in my AP Literature and Composition class, caught me off guard today with this statement that I overheard in passing:

"I hope that by the time I die I have a complete understanding of proper English."

Grammar is a tricky thing. On one hand, as an English teacher, I feel obligated to help my students work through major grammatical and mechanical mistakes. Primarily, though, I address grammar in my classroom when the presence of grammatical errors is impeding comprehensibility.

On the other hand, grammar has and continues to be used as means of establishing power roles. It divides us socially, economically and culturally by excluding the portions of society that do not speak or write with the same grammar of the ruling class. (When I speak of grammar here, I mean mechanics and word usage)

So in a way, being an English teacher has landed me right in the middle of quite a moral dillema: Do I teach grammar more explicitly and help kids become part of that ruling class that will potentially repress them one day? Or do I focus on the more important aspects of writing, like audience awareness, logic and rhetorical appeals, to help my students become more persuasive and establish their own unique voices?

In practice, I'll admit that I do a little bit of both in the classroom — I am not about to sacrifice my students' potential on account of my own philosophical misgivings. But I do resent the extent to which we privilege so-called grammatical correctness in our society, because even the most introductory knowledge of linguistic theory and language history reveals that language is malleable and fleeting. You can never "fully understand proper English," because such a thing does not exist.

In essence, in aspiring to and upholding a "standard" grammar, we elevate something that doesn't deserve to be elevated. Grammatical rules are — for the most part — arbitrary. Grammar does not deserve respect or adoration. It is built for us to destroy, and it is built for us to manipulate as we see fit. If you are one of those people who cringes every time Oxford adds a new word to its dictionary (.pdf of recent additions), you need to open your eyes: words that you have undoubtedly infused into your own local dialect were, at one time or another, not words at all. Hell, William Shakespeare is said to have invented some 10,000 words, loads of which many of us use on a regular basis without thinking twice.

If you are one of those people who scoff at a misused comma or lament the web-ification of modern discourse, step back and reconsider what you are taking issue with (<--- Sentences that end with prepositions? Yikes!). Grammar is contextual and multimodal. There are grammars that are appropriate for almost every level of communication we participate in. From emails, to cover letters, to academic essays, to friendly conversations — it is clear that one grammar does not fit all.

So if you apsire to grammatical correctness, I ask you, what exactly are you aspiring to?

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  • Public Discussion (164)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
Diaspar

Excellent article, this is something I've been thinking about recently. Certain people I know think it's important to try and speak a certain way in order to appear 'educated'. I think they're problems go deeper though: the whole idea of trying to appear as something you are not clearly reeks of ignorance to me.

I'm glad to see someone else who understands and respects the fact that language comes with a lot of cultural baggage and there isn't some objective standard of English we should all aspire to.

  • 7 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:36 PM EDT
ScooterDMan

I'm glad to see someone else who understands and respects the fact that language comes with a lot of cultural baggage and there isn't some objective standard of English we should all aspire to.

Beautifully said, Digital_Diaspar. The one thing I'd say is that I am not sure I think it's a good idea to purposely shield kids from different grammars. In other words, instead of saying "You should feel comfortable speaking only your native grammar," I think we should say "We respect your native grammar, but in order for you to communicate effectively with people outside of your culture, here are some other grammars you might consider."

I've been doing a lot of work online with my 11th graders, and I was shocked to learn how many of them have never composed an email. I'd venture to say that writing an email is about the first thing we should teach kids to do after they learn how to write. If my kids, at 16, do not know how email functions as a technology, they certainly do not know how email functions as a discourse, and that's scary.

  • 9 votes
#1.1 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:44 PM EDT
Raat ki Raani

grammar has and continues to be used as means of establishing power roles

wow- a pet peeve of mine.

writing for me is a passion. I know I can write and yet do understand how it is used as a means of building cultural and class divides by so many, so often. far more important to really get to know meaning behind what someone has written rather than attempting to score points over mastery of the language used to so do.

But does society get it? not often enough, IMO.

thanks for this - perfect way to celebrate Shakespeare today. a master of the language and how to convey a powerful message!

  • 8 votes
#1.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:57 AM EDT
ScooterDMan

far more important to really get to know meaning behind what someone has written rather than attempting to score points over mastery of the language used to so do.

That's the key. Thanks Raat.

  • 4 votes
#1.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:11 AM EDT
Glinda

I think they'retheir problems go deeper

Sorry I couldn't resist - and you're quite right ;-)

  • 4 votes
#1.4 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:56 PM EDT
BernardSD

hello there

    #1.5 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:21 PM EDT
    Diaspar

    Sorry I couldn't resist - and you're quite right ;-)

    Haha, I didn't even notice that! No, you're right in correcting me, there's a difference between being snobby with language and making a simple error, now I look like a fool! thanks for pointing that out :)

    • 3 votes
    #1.6 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:16 PM EDT
    Glinda

    Not at all - I'm anal.

    (about spelling)

    • 1 vote
    #1.7 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:41 PM EDT
    notmyown

    Why we should aspire to grammatical "correctness": because some of us need jobs, and most of us don't have time to break into a sociolinguistic lecture in the middle of our interviews.

    Seriously, though--I don't know if I agree with some of your conclusions here, but I definitely agree with the spirit of them.

    On the other hand, grammar has and continues to be used as means of establishing power roles.

    Maybe so. We glorify the so-called "Standard English", but very few of us speak it. Registers vary from place to place and situation to situation--I know I slip in and out of my regional accent (and I can affect two), my formal and informal voice, and even (in writing) from academic prose to a personal letter. It happens.

    The fact that I constrain my most formal and academic writing to a "standard" isn't indicative of a power struggle--as it turns out, even as a middle-class suburban white (in other words, a member of the group that often dominates socially, albeit unfairly), I have to change my manner of speaking depending on my audience. In academics, that means using "proper" grammar, even to the point of--and I say this with some disgust--linguistic prescriptivism.

    To name a big example that I deal with all the time in my city:
    When people judge African-American English (AAE), for example (and I also think of Chicano English and various regional accents), as "bad English" or "bad grammar" they're making a faulty judgment. AAE is just as complex and meaningful and even rules-governed as the so-called "standard". Yet in many situations, speakers of AAE will consciously slip into "Standard English" because of its associated prestige. That they have to do so (often to avoid unconscious or conscious discrimination) makes me very uncomfortable. "White English" is seen as better than "black English", a function of the disturbing underlying association skin color has with perception of social class or even sophistication.

    But isn't this the natural function of language? It can only reflect--and not (at least usually) serve a primary role in the perpetuation or establishment of--pre-existent power roles. If our language seems like a power struggle, maybe it's because our society is dealing with one. And it indicates that we have a long way to go.

    That's my take, at least.

    • 4 votes
    #1.8 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:44 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    Why we should aspire to grammatical "correctness": because some of us need jobs, and most of us don't have time to break into a sociolinguistic lecture in the middle of our interviews.

    Haha. You are absolutely right. At the end of the day, I try to put my kids in a position where they can function in a professional situation, I just feel conflicted about the means I have to employ to reach that end.

    And I agree that our struggles with language do, as you suggest, illustrate the struggles we continue to have in America with race and class.

    When people judge African-American English (AAE), for example (and I also think of Chicano English and various regional accents), as "bad English" or "bad grammar" they're making a faulty judgment. AAE is just as complex and meaningful and even rules-governed as the so-called "standard".

    This is probably the hardest point to understand for many people because to most of white America, AAE represents something so "other," something so inferior, that recognizing it for what is would force someone to essentially restructure their entire worldview. And most people don't have time for that.

    For those that don't have time to take a university seminar in linguistics, I would just recommend checking out Bill Bryson's "The Mother Tongue," which, while not academic, does introduce and nicely explain some of these major linguistic issues we are talking about here.

    • 2 votes
    #1.9 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:19 AM EDT
    Reply
    Adam Hobson

    If you are one of those people who scoff at a misused comma or lament the web-ification of modern discourse, step back and reconsider what you are taking issue with (<--- Sentences that end with prepositions? Yikes!).

    That whole ending a sentence with a preposition isn't actually a rule in English. It is a rule in Latin, and back in the day Latin was "the perfect" language that separated the classes. Thus they attempted to force English to be as close to Latin as possible. The reason you can end a sentence in English with a preposition is that in English you can compound words. So often a preposition ends a sentence, but it is not acting as a preposition, but instead as a part of a larger word.

    • 8 votes
    Reply#2 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:19 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    Exactly! And the same applies to the rule that suggests we should split infinitives (That it is incorrect to say "to quickly walk" and correct to say "to walk quickly.")

    In Latin, the infinitive form of the verb is composed of the base word plus a suffix that indicates the person and number.

    And these are just two examples among dozens more. Thanks, Adam.

    • 5 votes
    #2.1 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:47 PM EDT
    Adam Hobson

    I think it is just because Anglicans had such an inferiority complex with the rest of Europe.

    • 4 votes
    #2.2 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:10 PM EDT
    spiffie

    In Latin, the infinitive form of the verb is composed of the base word plus a suffix that indicates the person and number.

    Minor correction: the infinitive has neither person nor number. Latin verbs conjugate, and a conjugated verb has person and number (along with tense, mood, and voice), but an infinitive only has tense and voice (some argue that it has mood, or rather than the infinitive is its own mood).

    • 5 votes
    #2.3 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:34 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    You're absolutely right! My old Latin teacher would be so disappointed had she read my previous comment...

    I took three years of Latin in high school and two semesters in college. From it, I have retained the seven hills of Rome (Capitoline, Palatine, Avantine, Esquiline, Quirinal, Viminal, Caelian), how to decline neuter nouns (um, i, o, um, o/a orum(?), is, a, is) and, most importantly, my favorite Latin idiom:

    Semper ubi, sub ubi.

    • 4 votes
    #2.4 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:27 PM EDT
    spiffie

    I wish I'd had Latin in high school. Ah well. As it is, I didn't take my first Latin class until I went back to school at 29. I started to pick up Greek last year, too. Trying to learn two languages at 30 is...interesting.

    • 4 votes
    #2.5 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:31 PM EDT
    Pamela Drew

    Thank you Scooter this was brilliant and as a gramatically and mechanically challenges struggler with English, standing now and applauding, Bravo. We infinitive splitters and comma sprinklers do have something to say and it is nice to feel that somewhere the knowers of rules take pity on the rest of us.

    My own failings are vast and part of the reasons my kiddies were forced to take Latin. That and piano have been my two notable musts in their lives. Despite bitter complaints of torture and litanies about the precarious mental state of classics professors as a group, they can play piano and cite the Strunk & White. Me with either music or language can make them cringe. The true measure of success. For all their crammer and Latin here's the only bit that stuck with me. Anything smarty pants sticks, go figure. My smart addition, *smirk*

    O Nobili! Si ergo Fortibus es in ero. O Nobili! Demis trux! Sidem cari causendux.

    • 2 votes
    #2.6 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:39 AM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    We infinitive splitters and comma sprinklers do have something to say and it is nice to feel that somewhere the knowers of rules take pity on the rest of us.

    Haha. I don't take pity on people who don't "know the rules." Actually, part of what I love about Newsvine is that it sort of levels the playing field in terms of who gets to become powerful. Your contributions here, despite your lack of confidence grammatically, have made you one of the most prominent authors in this community. Isn't that wonderful?

    Shouldn't there be more places like this where people aren't immediately judged based on their ability to conform to a dreadfully ethnocentric view of how language should operate?

    • 5 votes
    #2.7 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:17 AM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    Shouldn't there be more places like this

    Yes and No.

    Yes, because of what you say about how it levels the playing field.

    No, because of the compelling power of this kinda medium. There's a finite limit to how far my addiction can stretch. I would much prefer strenghtening this medium so that it addresses all my needs and wants. One Stop shopping - the Wall Mart of social networking.

    • 4 votes
    #2.8 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:49 AM EDT
    listentothis

    infinitive splitters and comma sprinklers

    infinitive-splitters? comma-sprinklers? [:

    Yes...most of English's rules are arbitrary. English is a mix of so many different root languages that one set of rules cannot possibly apply to the entire language.

    What about double negatives? I know it's ridiculous because language is language and not math, but was it derived from another language?

    • 1 vote
    #2.9 - Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:08 PM EDT
    spiffie

    One of the interesting thing about double negatives is that it's the one arbitrary rule I can think of that goes opposite of Latin and Greek, both of which can admit multiple negatives. A lot of "sillier" rules in English were based on what early grammarians saw as "proper" grammar from the Classical languages (e.g. the sentence-ending preposition rule, the split infinitive). Multiple negatives in these cases are for emphasis, i.e. "really really really God damn it NO!"

    I'm not sure why that is, but I imagine you're more than likely correct that it has to do with formal logic.

    • 2 votes
    #2.10 - Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:13 AM EDT
    Reply
    agio

    I would like to suggest that there is an important distinction between "grammar" and "usage." Grammar is a more basic and intrinsic set of rules, which ensures that language communicates more or less what it is intended to. Usage is a more flexible concept, and involves an awareness on the part of the writer of the audience and register in which she is writing.

    For example, the rule "every clause must have a subject and a predicate" is a grammatical rule. The rule "never split an infinitive" is more of a usage rule. It can (or even should, in some cases) be broken without destroying meaning.

    I think that students learn grammar, and become aware of usage.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#3 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:52 PM EDT
    agio

    Make that "student should learn grammar." A grammatical error.

    • 1 vote
    #3.1 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:53 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    A very important distinction, and forgive me for conflating the two. I did try to make it clear when I said

    (When I speak of grammar here, I mean mechanics and word usage)

    I do think we teach usage as if it were grammar, and that's part of the problem.

    By the way, all this discussion about Latin — your name isn't some form of the Latin ago-agere, meaning "to do or to drive," is it?

    • 2 votes
    #3.2 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:12 PM EDT
    Pamela Drew

    and forgive me for conflating the two.

    That's a big request but I'm working through it. Just try not to let your dad see you conflating again, okay?

    • 2 votes
    #3.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:45 AM EDT
    agio

    Scooter,

    I think that is the etymology of it. I picked the name just because I liked the sound of it... but it turns out it is an English noun. When you exchange currencies, the leftover amount that the money-changer takes is the "agio." I have no interest in finance, so for me it's just nice syllables.

    Thanks for the thought-provoking essay.

    • 2 votes
    #3.4 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:01 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    A new word. Cool. Thanks.

    • 1 vote
    #3.5 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:54 PM EDT
    Reply
    Redruby

    What a really good question this is:

    If you aspire to grammatical correctness, I ask you, what exactly are you aspiring to?

    I think what I aspire to is to be seen and respected for my thoughts, ideas and intellect and to not be shamed or ridiculed for the fact that I grew up in a poor, working class family that was not educated.

    Scooter, this really touched a nerve for me. Thank you so much for writing.

    • 12 votes
    Reply#4 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:29 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    I think what I aspire to is to be seen and respected for my thoughts, ideas and intellect and to not be shamed or ridiculed for the fact that I grew up in a poor, working class family that was not educated.

    Thoughts, ideas, intellect. Hey, there's something we could cultivate!

    • 4 votes
    #4.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:20 AM EDT
    Johblogs

    Redruby, this is the great question in this article in my opinion. For me, as an English teacher, who wasn't taught grammar at school, how can I inspire my students to aspire to it? I aspire so I can teach. I don't always aspire. I often don't let it get in the way with expressing something I want to get out. Latin was never a part of my education.

    A great article, thanks ScooterDMan. Plenty of things to think about there.

    • 1 vote
    #4.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:10 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    Thanks, Johblogs!

    • 1 vote
    #4.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:22 PM EDT
    Reply
    Daniel A. HalloDeleted
    pseudonihilist

    Many of us who aspire to something resembling "decent" grammar are harder on ourselves than we are on others. I fret over my own omitted commas while almost applauding others for their apparent indifference to such petty concerns.

    • 4 votes
    Reply#6 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:14 AM EDT
    matthewktabor

    Grammar as a weapon in the power struggle? I'll let you come up with your own witticism here, but I demand that it must 1) reference Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky and 2) incorporate the phrase, "doth protest too much."

    Language is an art; grammar allows us to create the highest art.

    • 5 votes
    Reply#7 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:18 AM EDT
    Lis

    Language in general is to convey ideas. It remains an instrument, and as such the sharper an instrument, the more precisely you can use it.

    I don't think grammar is so much of a divider as jargon is. Vocabulary is much more exclusive in terms of shutting out the underprivileged from understanding.

    • 5 votes
    Reply#8 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:16 AM EDT
    Cassandra

    Jargon is also a significant contributor to the famous "generation gap," I find. Certainly, half of my conversations with my grandson involve trying to figure out how he is using words that I thought I understood, but that are currently used differently.

    • 1 vote
    #8.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:38 PM EDT
    Reply
    Captain Nemo

    Wow, that is a list that leaves even someone as "jaded" as I with a sense of "amazement". It is not too "far-off" to say that it would be "profitless" to try to enforce proper grammar, when even an "unrivalled" "honey-tongued" writer like Shakespeare coined words like "aerial" and "paternal" and "laughable", "rascally" and "gentlefolk". It would be both "cold-hearted" and "cruel-hearted" indeed to deprive me of the chance to use words like "arouse", "undress silk stockings", "fitful engagement" and "embrace". Surely even "squabbling news-mongers", "successful managers" and "unsexed please-men" must agree.

    • 8 votes
    Reply#9 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:33 AM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    Claus - all those words in quotes. are they all the tags you use on the vine? :-)

    • 3 votes
    #9.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:01 AM EDT
    Captain Nemo

    Claus - all those words in quotes. are they all the tags you use on the vine? :-)

    They are actually from the link that ScooterDMan offered in the article to 10.000 words Bill created.

    But yes, I do use some of them a lot. ;)

    • 5 votes
    #9.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:05 AM EDT
    Brian White

    Despite those good examples, made up words like "impactful" NEED to be stamped out.

    • 3 votes
    #9.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:07 PM EDT
    Brian Ford

    Why? Sometimes made up words are really impactful!

    • 5 votes
    #9.4 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:40 PM EDT
    spiffie

    I think made up words are an instinct that goes to the heart of language itself. The way we can "verbify" or "substantize" any word can be seen in ancient languages, too. Compounding is another time honored method for getting across meaning when existing vocabulary just won't do.

    • 3 votes
    #9.5 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:34 PM EDT
    Glinda

    Making up words is creative use of language and keeps it alive - however "impactful" smacks of that adver-jargon. I submit this word has only ever been used at sales meetings.

    • 4 votes
    #9.6 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:50 PM EDT
    Brian White

    Not just at sales meetings. I've had marketing people tell me to make web pages more 'impactful' numerous times. Drove me nuts. My foot wanted to get impactful with their ass whenever I heard that.

    • 2 votes
    #9.7 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:41 AM EDT
    Glinda

    I feel your pain, in fact I'm developing a tic just thinking about it.

    • 2 votes
    #9.8 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:28 PM EDT
    notmyown

    I think you mean "nominalize" not "substantize"...

    • 2 votes
    #9.9 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:34 PM EDT
    spiffie

    It's my made up word, so it's whatever I want it to be. ;-)

    That was sort of the point, I can make up a word using well-understood roots and suffixes, and have it be understood by the vast majority of native and fluent speakers.

    • 4 votes
    #9.10 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:57 PM EDT
    notmyown

    Substantize, I think, might only be understood by a subset...

    The only reason it made me think of nominalize is the Spanish word for noun--sustantivo.

    • 2 votes
    #9.11 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:44 AM EDT
    spiffie

    Well nominalize would make sense, too, if you accept it as a verbal variant of the nominative from grammar. I used substantize because some grammars still refer, together, to nouns, adjectives, and pronouns as "substantives" (i.e. words that refer to an idea with substance, not an action).

    • 2 votes
    #9.12 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:10 PM EDT
    notmyown

    ha! my linguistic knowledge was not complete!

    thank you, seriously.

    • 2 votes
    #9.13 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:13 PM EDT
    Captain Nemo

    It's not that this thread appeared in yellow to me, because I sort of started it, but I really found myself voting for each and every comment here. It was very amusing to read the opinions about "substantivization" and "verbification" - okay, I am provoking now... I will let it go. The topic is not so important to me that it is not droppable ;)

    • 2 votes
    #9.14 - Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:36 AM EDT
    Reply
    Ryan Stolte-Sawa

    Well said! Although, I still don't think "bootylicious" should be in the dictionary.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#10 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:30 AM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    You know, I see where you are coming from regarding bootylicious, but from what I understand, a word has got to meet some really stringent criteria before being admitted to the OED. They have researchers all over the world whose sole job it is to track usage trends. So I am inclined to believe that if the OED tells me bootylicious is a word, then it is one.

    How cool would it be if I gave my high schoolers a vocab quiz with only recent OED words on the list?

    • 9 votes
    #10.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:59 AM EDT
    agio

    Keep in mind that the OED has always striven to be a descriptive dictionary, defining words as they are used in their historical and literary context. This is different from, for example, Webster's, which strives to be prescriptive and judge what is "proper" American English.

    I am not sure exactly what the criteria for inclusion in the OED are, but words that originate in popular culture are certainly included. My favorite is still the interjection, "d'oh!"

    • 3 votes
    #10.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:28 PM EDT
    Reply
    lauracle007

    You wrote this real good! ;D Excellent article!

    • 5 votes
    Reply#11 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:42 AM EDT
    firsty

    you cant break the rules unless you know the rules. then, by all means, have at it. but avoiding proper grammar as an excuse to avoid learning something arbitrarily defined as arbitrary isnt going to buy anyone any understanding.

    • 5 votes
    Reply#12 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:24 AM EDT
    Ryan Stolte-Sawa

    Yes. And Scooter wrote:

    Grammar is a tricky thing. On one hand, as an English teacher, I feel obligated to help my students work through major grammatical and mechanical mistakes. Primarily, though, I address grammar in my classroom when the presence of grammatical errors is impeding comprehensibility.

    (Emphasis mine)

    His point is not that we don't need grammar, Firsty, but that grammar, as part of language, is always evolving. There is no such thing as "proper English"--there is only effective English.

    • 5 votes
    #12.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:36 AM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    you cant break the rules unless you know the rules. then, by all means, have at it. but avoiding proper grammar as an excuse to avoid learning something arbitrarily defined as arbitrary isnt going to buy anyone any understanding.

    firsty, to a large extent, I agree with you. I think we should teach students the "rules," but not only the rules of so-called "proper grammar." That is merely an illusion. Grammar and usage vary according to culture, geography and socio-economic status. If we don't account for that in our classrooms, we betray the very thing that makes our language beautiful: its flexibility. We should treat grammar in the public schools like we treat foreign languages. We should encourage multi-lingualism.

    Please note, though. My point is not that we abandon grammar — that would be physically impossible, as inherent grammatical rules shape the way we speak, write and think. I am only suggesting that we destroy the notion, once and for all, that grammatical correctness can somehow be measured by some objective standard. It simply cannot.

    • 2 votes
    #12.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:10 AM EDT
    firsty

    but that grammar, as part of language, is always evolving. There is no such thing as "proper English"--there is only effective English.

    evolution is part of the equation, but what is true today will be true tomorrow, just as my kids have the same number of fingers as i do. to say it's evolving doesnt mean that it's impossible to capture it at any given time. and referring to rules doesnt mean that one cant be open to the rules changing.

    Grammar and usage vary according to culture, geography and socio-economic status.

    i'll grant you that, but thats merely an extension of existing rules. you're not saying, really, that grammar rules are an illusion. you're saying that grammar rules are more complex than some people might think.

    of course, once you start teaching more than one way to skin a cat, you're implying that you are intimately familiar, and able to teach, as an expert, more than one way to skin a cat. it's a fine line between accepting differences and knowing what the differences are to such an extent that those differences can be defined.

    i'm obviously suspicious of people claiming that grammar rules vary. i agree that they do, but it cant be that they vary simply by one group using them and another group not using them. if there are different "rules" for different groups, thats one thing. if there are groups who are allowed via some delusion of an illusion to abandon rules, thats quite another.

    • 6 votes
    #12.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:20 AM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    i agree that they do, but it cant be that they vary simply by one group using them and another group not using them. if there are different "rules" for different groups, thats one thing. if there are groups who are allowed via some delusion of an illusion to abandon rules, thats quite another.

    firsty, you just blew my mind. I'm gonna have to chew on that a bit before I respond.

    • 5 votes
    #12.4 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:22 AM EDT
    firsty

    you mean this bit,

    via some delusion of an illusion

    ?

    :)

    heh. i liked that.

    • 3 votes
    #12.5 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:58 AM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    Ha. Yes. That bit. And this one.

    of course, once you start teaching more than one way to skin a cat, you're implying that you are intimately familiar, and able to teach, as an expert, more than one way to skin a cat. it's a fine line between accepting differences and knowing what the differences are to such an extent that those differences can be defined.

    This conversation would be more meaningful over beer and lots of dramatic hand movements and body language.

    • 5 votes
    #12.6 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:56 PM EDT
    firsty

    This conversation would be more meaningful over beer and lots of dramatic hand movements and body language.

    thats how most of my conversations go, at least on this end, even if you cant see it. ;)

    • 1 vote
    #12.7 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:32 AM EDT
    Reply
    ShaunV

    grammar, as part of language, is always evolving. There is no such thing as "proper English"--there is only effective English.

    Yes! Good writing is writing that captivates the reader. Sometimes perfect grammar ruins the flow.

    • 5 votes
    Reply#13 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:55 AM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    There is no such thing as "proper English"

    only effective language. which over time, thanks to evolutions, comprises words and meanings from a multitude of tongues. N'est pas, bwana?

    • 4 votes
    #13.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:02 AM EDT
    Ryan Stolte-Sawa

    History doesn't stop at yesterday, Raat. Language is still evolving.

    • 3 votes
    #13.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:45 AM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    did I give the impression it isn't? My bad if I did.

    • 3 votes
    #13.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:53 AM EDT
    Ryan Stolte-Sawa

    Oh, sorry, I is confuse.

    • 2 votes
    #13.4 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:55 PM EDT
    firsty

    Good writing is writing that captivates the reader. Sometimes perfect grammar ruins the flow.

    you're right - good writing is that which captivates the reader. but i think it's a gross oversimplification with shades of inaccuracy to say that, even sometimes, "perfect grammar" ruins the flow*. something like "perfect grammar," wrongly applied, can ruin the flow.

    on the other hand, the lack of good grammar almost always ruins the flow, at least for a certain, predictable (controllable) segment of your readership. why ruin the flow when a simple round of editing, to clean things up, according to established and understood rules of grammar, can fix it? the payoff is tremendous. on the one hand, one can write however they wish to write and hope for the best, or they can invest a small amount of energy to work towards good grammar as best they can, and gain exponential results for the reader.

    in all cases, as a writer, the reader must be considered.

    *the "flow" is sometimes referred to as the "dream." i strongly suggest reading something by john gardner, like "on becoming a novelist," or "the art of fiction." within the context of a given piece of writing, there is a reality, which in fiction, by gardner, is called the "dream", and which is that thing that the writer must treat as the most fragile part of his or her work. but this can be applied to any piece of writing — the reader must not be interrupted during the dream, and attention to style and, yes, grammar, is what holds this together.

    • 2 votes
    #13.5 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:41 AM EDT
    Reply
    Noah BradleyDeleted
    ellie mae

    The goal of proper grammar is to suppress superfluous συνομιλία. :)

    • 3 votes
    Reply#15 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:09 AM EDT
    Brian Ford

    It's like you read my posts and decided that you wanted to justify my atrocious bastardization of the grammar rule book.

    For that - thanks.

    :)

    • 5 votes
    Reply#16 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:19 AM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    Ha. Maybe I subconsciously wrote it to account for my own lack of proofreading for my Vine articles.

    • 6 votes
    #16.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:32 AM EDT
    Reply
    firsty

    You can never "fully understand proper English," because such a thing does not exist.

    nothing you noted in your article explains that "proper english" doesnt exist. you reference comma usage, for instance. there are some rules which are fixed and some which are not. we can choose to use commas differently within the parameters of proper english. that doesnt mean that proper english is an illusion, it means that "some people" presume "proper english" to be 100% objective and fixed, which it's not.

    i think the flaw in your reasoning is that you feel "proper english" teaches one way and only one way to do something, anything, everything. thats simply not true. rules of grammar are a set of parameters within which writers "must" operate in order to maximize understanding.

    believe me, i love to violate the rules of grammar. but i do so with what i feel is a pretty deep understanding of what i'm doing. i cringe whenever idiots like dan patrick on the radio misuse "fewer" and "less." as in, "there are less players today who use steroids than in the 90s". thats simply wrong, it should be "fewer." that doesnt mean that i dont understand what he's saying, but if he were to follow that simple rule, he wouldnt alienate listeners who dont understand the rules, and he would be practicing better communication for those who do understand the rules.

    grammar use can be compromised while still maintaining an audience, but i challenge you to come up with an example of proper english usage, well executed, that actually alienates a group of people who might not be familiar with proper english usage. i dont mean extraordinarily formal english, because there is a difference between writing like a scholar and writing like a newspaper columnist. both may use proper english, but they use different words, different styles, to speak to different audiences. thats different than grammar.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#17 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:31 AM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    thats different than grammar

    ...different from...

    • 6 votes
    #17.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:55 AM EDT
    firsty

    ...different from...

    thank you! many writers have their gaps in understanding grammar, and i'm not afraid to have others point out mine. i always get that mixed up.

    • 4 votes
    #17.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:59 AM EDT
    Reply
    ScooterDMan

    but i challenge you to come up with an example of proper english usage, well executed, that actually alienates a group of people who might not be familiar with proper english usage.

    The first example that comes to mind is a situation that I find myself in all the time. The telephone rings, I pick up, and the person on the other end asks to speak to Ryan Meehan.

    Now, I know the "correct" thing to say. The natural thing to say for me is "This is him," but because a predicate nominative correlates to a subjective pronoun, the "correct" thing to say is "This is he."

    Same goes for situations like:

    "Who's at door?"
    "It's me!"
    (incorrect)
    vs.

    "Who's at the door?"
    "It is I!"
    (correct)

    At that point, following "proper" rules of grammar creates a situation that is uncomfortable and outright awkward.

    Now, a challenge for you, firsty: Can you think of any grammar rules that you didn't know at 5 years old that you feel are absolutely crucial to you communicating effectively?

    • 3 votes
    Reply#18 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:54 AM EDT
    firsty

    those are poorly executed examples. a well executed use would be "who's at the door?" "i am."

    right?

    Can you think of any grammar rules that you didn't know at 5 years old that you feel are absolutely crucial to you communicating effectively?

    first of all, you're muddying the waters by using "absolutely critical." proper usage is not meant to be "absolutely critical," thats why we have exceptions and thats why we allow that grammar evolves. at any rate, of course i can think of MANY examples of rules i didnt know at 5 yrs old that are, really, critical to effective communication. my son is 6 and he still uses "brang" or "brung" for "brought". i cant really remember what i thought i knew when i was 5, but i was just reminded of when to use "from" instead of "than," so i hardly claim to be an expert, even tho i do claim to know a great deal.

    • 2 votes
    #18.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:08 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    those are poorly executed examples. a well executed use would be "who's at the door?" "i am."

    Actually, it's a great example. Saying "It's me" and "I am" imply two wholly different meanings. If I knock on the door, and someone I know asks who it is, I reply "It's me," which is my way of telling the person on the other side of the door "I am not a threat. You know me!"

    I can rarely think of an instance where I would answer "I am," except if I am in public restroom, and someone knocks and says "Is anyone in there?"

    Do you see what I am saying?

    at any rate, of course i can think of MANY examples of rules i didnt know at 5 yrs old that are, really, critical to effective communication. my son is 6 and he still uses "brang" or "brung" for "brought".

    That's a good example. And you are right that we certainly have a lot to learn in terms of usage when we are children. My point is that grammar is embedded in our language. By the time we are old enough to speak, we are mostly capable of using it effectively as a tool for communication. At five, I knew that I had to put words in a certain "logical" order for what I was saying to make sense.

    But even with your example of bring, brang, brung (I've even heard branged!), I am still inclined to say that the distinction between the various forms of that verb are largely arbirtrary, and depend not on "proper" rules, but on context and popular usage. If a majority of Americans started using "brung" in the past perfect form instead of "brought," the word would eventually change to account for that.

    Again, this doesn't mean that I don't "correct" my students when they "misuse" words. I am just suggesting that we recognize that the rules are not as permanent as we think they are.

    • 2 votes
    #18.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:25 PM EDT
    firsty

    Do you see what I am saying?

    yes. communication depends on context, and too often we incorrectly apply what we presume to be "good grammar" to situations which require more attention, which require not different rules, but a different interpretation of context.

    do you see what i'm saying?

    If a majority of Americans started using "brung" in the past perfect form instead of "brought," the word would eventually change to account for that.

    yeah, thats evolution, but that hasnt happened yet. we can also treat physical deformities as possible future normalities, but that would be quite presumptuous. we're just as likely, a hundred years from now, to use "kapt" to replace "brought" as we are to use "brang."

    it sounds like you're overcompensating for the reality of language evolution by pretending there isnt an existing and stable state. there is.

    • 3 votes
    #18.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:48 PM EDT
    Reply
    chill

    enjoyed the article

    More important than grammar is achieving the goal of the piece being written.

    For example:

    Business Memo: Goal: Clarity, succinctness, unambiguous, simple

    Poetry: Beauty, lyrical, etc

    Novel: I don't know, interestingness

    Technical Faq: Clarity, ease of understanding

    etc

    • 2 votes
    Reply#19 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:06 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    I can't believe no one has responded to the graphic I have included with this piece. In case you are confused by it, I have Photoshopped a sword slaying a comma — a metaphor which complements nicely the spirit of my piece.

    I make about 90% of the graphics that go with my stories, and rarely does anyone even notice. For this one, I figured I would appeal to your sensationalistic nature.

    "I will depict the graphic murder of a revered and respected member of the punctuation community," I thought. "They will respond!"

    And yet, there it bleeds — unacknowledged and unappreciated, drowning in a sea of words. One of many ghosts of visual rhetoric that have emanated from the touchpad of this Powerbook.
    :(

    • 6 votes
    Reply#20 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:13 PM EDT
    Daniel A. HalloDeleted
    Brian Ford

    Yeah, I used to create really elaborate designs to accompany my original articles, and they were rarely if ever commented on.

    For that reason, I rarely take the time anymore. (Well, there was also that I began to feel obligated by my own standards, and it meant I wouldn't write when I didn't feel like making a graphic.)

    • 4 votes
    #20.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:28 PM EDT
    chill

    oops sorry

    IT IS a fantastic graphic

    my quick glance saw an oriental Ying Yang thing - my loss

    • 4 votes
    #20.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:32 PM EDT
    firsty

    if i could stick
    a sword in my comma
    would it satisfy ya
    would it slide on by ya
    would ya the boy cant write?

    • 3 votes
    #20.4 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:41 PM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    Glad you mentioned it. I had not even looked. It's a good metaphor. No longer totally wasted effort on your part.

    Loved your article; really enjoyed reading the feedback from all. Comments threads add so much more value to a piece. For me, that's the best take-away from Newsvine.

    • 2 votes
    #20.5 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:45 PM EDT
    wallflower

    I noticed the picture. It made me sorta (ahem, sort of) sad....The comma is my right hand man. When in doubt, throw in a comma. I guess I am a repeat comma abuser.

    • 1 vote
    #20.6 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:24 PM EDT
    Glinda

    Hey me too; I also love the semi-colon.

    • 1 vote
    #20.7 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:58 PM EDT
    Reply
    vicaxp

    Well shuckins, SDM, that there is a right nice graphic!

    • 4 votes
    Reply#21 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:35 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    Well, thanks, vicaxp. You shouldn't have... *blushes*

    • 3 votes
    #21.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:59 PM EDT
    Reply
    Sprydle

    Since moving to the US I have noticed a grammatical difference from UK English that I find somewhat annoying. Not keep-me-up-at-night annoying, but annoying none the less.

    There is a kolache chain here in Houston who's motto is "Eat different". Eat different what fercryinoutloud? Surely it should be "Eat differently"?

    There is a restaurant whose motto is "Eat healthy". Eat healthy what? I hear people say "I'm trying to eat more healthy." Eat more healthy what? Shouldn't it be healthily?

    I know, I know, I'm anally retentive. I'm trying to behave less anal. ;-)

    • 4 votes
    Reply#22 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:54 PM EDT
    firsty

    apple computer started it with their "think different" ad campaign. ads are famous for bad grammar.

    • 1 vote
    #22.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:01 PM EDT
    Brian Ford

    But, there's a reason for that:

    Ads are supposed to be catchy -- and roll of the tongue -- and need to be memorable.

    "Think Differently" is awkward.

    "Think Different" means two things:

    "Don't conform" is the most obvious reading, yes.

    But, it also asks to think about Apple when we do think: In this context "different" is simply another word for "Apple." And, it's different because (at the time) few people were thinking "Apple" when they were thinking about a new computer.

    • 2 votes
    #22.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:05 PM EDT
    Redruby

    How about "Question authority"? ;-)

    • 3 votes
    #22.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:04 PM EDT
    firsty

    But, there's a reason for that:

    yes, there is. i wasnt disputing that. i hope nobody thinks i was. i was merely pointing that out.

    there are always exceptions. but there wouldnt be exceptions if there werent rules to begin with.

    to be clear — my point is that rules are important, not that rules can never be broken.

    • 1 vote
    #22.4 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:15 PM EDT
    Sprydle

    How about "Act Responsible"? Yuck.

    • 3 votes
    #22.5 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:20 PM EDT
    Reply
    JoulesBeef

    being a gramaridiot most of my life i cheer at this article
    but still as a grammaridiot i have to disagree somewhat.
    As time to time again i run into problems do to lack of grammar
    my biggest peeve and to tired for good examples of double negatives(i actually excel at this and can get my negatives to go exponential) but dont not care much for examples anyway or how people mistakenly answer negative questions wrong. You dont want another piece of pie.. is the answer no or yes?

    • 2 votes
    Reply#23 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:18 PM EDT
    wallflower

    these are my pet peeves--

    1. "irregardless," instead of "regardless."
    2. i actually confuse myself with "i could care less" and "i couldn't care less." i realize the second is correct, but i catch myself saying the first every so often.

    • 3 votes
    #23.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:32 PM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    dunno

    • 2 votes
    #23.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:32 PM EDT
    Reply
    rnary

    This article makes me feel much better because while I want to become an english teacher someday...grammar is my weak point. Of course I have the basics down....but there are just too, too many rules that I cannot for the life of me remember.

    My AP lang. teacher in 11th grade was a grammar Nazi....she marked me off for every little thing....rules I didn't even know existed!

    I feel that if it doesn't hinder the comprehensibility of my work....what's the big deal?!

    I'm dreading the "english grammar and usage" class. *cringes

    • 3 votes
    Reply#24 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:46 PM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    rnary - I suggest you re-read the article. I do not believe anyone on this thread is suggesting we dispense with rules of grammar. They are an important part of a language. If you aspire to be an English teacher, grammar is fundamental for you to get a thorough understanding of.

    What is being debated is the importance people place on grammar when engaged in a dialogue, and the relative value of grammar over all the other elements in a language.

    • 2 votes
    #24.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:56 PM EDT
    rnary

    I don't believe I ever suggested we do away with grammar and of course I understand its importance

    What is being debated is the importance people place on grammar when engaged in a dialogue, and the relative value of grammar over all the other elements in a language.

    I understood this. When I say grammar I don't mean comas and periods. I meant things such as "Sentences that end with prepositions" and "split infinitves"; rules that apply to the actual language and sentence structure.

    • 1 vote
    #24.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:45 PM EDT
    Raat ki Raani

    such as "Sentences that end with prepositions" and "split infinitves"

    Oh, I get it. Totally agree with you. That part of grammar rules make me go crazy. Think I apply the rules instinctively now; would struggle to define them or .. whatever...

    • 1 vote
    #24.3 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:18 AM EDT
    Reply
    gecko85

    Primarily, though, I address grammar in my classroom when the presence of grammatical errors is impeding comprehensibility.

    I think that's the key. The grammar police need to step off, unless the error is impeding comprehensibility.

    • 4 votes
    Reply#25 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:49 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    The grammar police need to step off

    Haha. Yo, Grammar Police. Back up off my misplaced modifier!

    • 4 votes
    #25.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:19 PM EDT
    Reply
    Brian White

    Do I teach grammar more explicitly and help kids become part of that ruling class that will potentially repress them one day? Or do I focus on the more important aspects of writing, like audience awareness, logic and rhetorical appeals, to help my students become more persuasive and establish their own unique voices?

    Clearly the solution is Esperanto. One simple grammar with no exceptions.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#26 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:58 PM EDT
    ScooterDMan

    Do elaborate...

      #26.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:30 PM EDT
      Reply
      *wookie

      I agree entirely about grammar but, America, we have to have words about spelling. It's Colour, Cheque, Catalogue, Centre… and that's just the C's. I mean… Grrrrrr…

      ;o)

      • 3 votes
      #27 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:07 PM EDT
      *wookie

      Spot the erroneous apostrophe.

      *blush*

      • 2 votes
      #27.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:08 PM EDT
      Raat ki Raani

      Wow. A supporter of the Queen's English! You have a friend, mate:-)

      • 3 votes
      #27.2 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:13 PM EDT
      *wookie

      Indeed, who's damned language is it anyway? ;o)

      Jesting aside, it's interesting to trace where the language has divided; it's not a clear cut case of the US adapting English spelling - 'Gotten', for example, is not used in British English at all (scorned, in fact), yet it is an old English word that over time has fallen out of favour here but still going strong in the US. Etymology is endlessly fascinating!

      It is, however, a travesty that some US software companies see fit to label real English as 'International English' - patronising bastards!

      Don't get me started on your weird maths either - Metric rules! (pardon the pun)

      • 4 votes
      #27.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 PM EDT
      spiffie

      The "-ize/-ise" suffixation is another good example. "-ize" is actually older, or at least is attested to in older sources, but the Brits decided relatively recently (within the last 200 years, I think) to standardize on "standardise."

      • 5 votes
      #27.4 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:17 PM EDT
      *wookie

      I wonder if, in a hundred years or so, we'll have a situation like Dutch and Afrikaans. A friend of mine is South African and fluent in Afrikaans, yet when visiting Europe is able to understand Dutch perfectly well due to their shared heritage (Afrikaans is sometimes referred to as 'Kitchen Dutch').

      I suppose, given the fact that British English seems to be slowly aligning with US English, Ebonics may be a more likely candidate for this linguistic evolution - and of course that in itself is modifying both US and UK English further, perhaps in different directions.

      It's an interesting question - will the English of 2100 bear much resemblance to today, and will US and UK English converge or split further?

      • 5 votes
      #27.5 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:41 PM EDT
      Raat ki Raani

      Without even going forward in time, at this point in time, the largest group of people around the world speaking English are not Anglophiles at all. They are Indian, speaking English at a professional level.

      There's a local version of English mixed with Hindi that is evolving in India called Hinglish. Many observers suggest that, with the growth of the Indian offshoring sector as well other knowledge-based services, and the rising profile of Indian businesses on the world stage, it is possible that in a few years, Hinglish may become more common at a global level.

      • 5 votes
      #27.6 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:01 PM EDT
      *wookie

      Good point - I'd overlooked that entirely, should have been obvious really! English spoken by an Indian as a second language is one of my favourite accents, the combination of clipped precision and a certain richness (rolled Rs etc…) presumably inherited from the native tongue. Great stuff, up there with Welsh and Caribbean inflected English in my opinion.

      There's an article on Hinglish at the Beeb, some good comments too - 'Wenglish' amused me, being Welsh.

      • 3 votes
      #27.7 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:11 PM EDT
      agio

      Don't get me started on your weird maths either

      Or "math" (singular) as we say here on this side of the pond.

      • 2 votes
      #27.8 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:50 PM EDT
      ScooterDMan

      I have a friend who's of Indian heritage but was born and raised in Guyana as a native English speaker. He's a wonderful poet and short-story author, and his accent is destabilizing, a combination of Indian-inflected and Carribean-inflected English.

      Before we became friends, I wrote this story about him.

      • 2 votes
      #27.9 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:36 PM EDT
      Raat ki Raani

      Scooter (you've blown your cover)- fascinating read. Thanks for sharing.

      • 1 vote
      #27.10 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:24 AM EDT
      ScooterDMan

      Scooter (you've blown your cover)

      No cover. I haven't written for them in years. Thanks for reading it, though. It was a fun story to write.

      • 1 vote
      #27.11 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:33 AM EDT
      *wookie

      Or "math" (singular) as we say here on this side of the pond.

      This one has always puzzled me. The full word is 'Mathematics' - with an s. Why drop the S for the shortened form? Presumably you don't study 'Physic' or 'Economic'? To a Brit these sound just as odd as 'Math'.

      • 1 vote
      #27.12 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:50 AM EDT
      Raat ki Raani

      wookie - us Brits need to set up a Group to defend the real 'English' language.
      Proper, like, if you know what I mean:-)

      • 3 votes
      #27.13 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:55 AM EDT
      *wookie

      Our work would never end, init. ;o)

      • 2 votes
      #27.14 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:21 AM EDT
      Sprydle

      I talk dead posh, me!

      While we are on the subject - there is an H in the word Herb fercrissakes! The only people who can plausibly get away with sayin 'erb are Jamaicans.

      ;o)

      • 2 votes
      #27.15 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:47 AM EDT
      Raat ki Raani

      LOL sprydle (gosh, that is not an easy alias to type. Good way to trip up those commenting to you).

      Looks like we may be on to something to help evolve the lingo closer to how nature intended:-)

      Intrigued about ure 5 guitar-2 cats life!

      • 2 votes
      #27.16 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:02 PM EDT
      Sprydle

      I can feel a campaign coming on - Bring back "Natural English"!

      Give "cherry" back it's innocence!
      Bring "fanny" back from the back!
      Give "aluminum" back it's "i"!
      Give "color" back it's "U"!
      Put bangs back on the fringe where they belong!

      • 4 votes
      #27.17 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:01 PM EDT
      Raat ki Raani

      love it, but I am mindful that we Brits may be overstaying our welcome on Scooter's column. Now that's not good for our stiff upper lip reputation.

      How about an article?
      You write; I'll help start the fans. Wookie et al can add some spice. Job done:-)

      • 2 votes
      #27.18 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:26 PM EDT
      *wookie

      Indeed, spice can be arranged. Better than Herbs - even Coriander (Cilantro my arse!!)

      I want to be able to ask if I can bum a fag without being given shocked looks!

      • 4 votes
      #27.19 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:31 PM EDT
      Raat ki Raani

      wookie - what IS it that you're on (about)? Are these special fags only available in Cymru?

      • 1 vote
      #27.20 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:38 PM EDT
      Sprydle

      Heh - you could be right - sorry Scooter!

      • 1 vote
      #27.21 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:50 PM EDT
      *wookie

      Raat ki Raani,

      Entirely unrelated to the coriander bit, just in support of Sprydle's "Bring Back Natural English" campaign - perhaps as a slogan - "It's OK to Bum Fags". :o)

      For the puzzled…
      Bum: Get by Asking or Begging
      Fag: Cigarette

      • 2 votes
      #27.22 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:21 PM EDT
      Glinda

      I want to be able to ask if I can bum a fag without being given shocked looks

      oh dear, you might get a lot worse than that. Thanks for the laugh :-D

      • 1 vote
      #27.23 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:55 PM EDT
      *wookie

      you might get a lot worse than that

      You mean I might get a queer look instead? ;o)

      • 2 votes
      #27.24 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:42 PM EDT
      Raat ki Raani

      I've seeded the link that wookie had above as it was an excellent one to build on. Could be fun, perhaps towards what the Brits on this thread are threatening:-)

      It's Hinglish innit?

      language gets hungry. needs food.

      • 2 votes
      #27.25 - Tue May 1, 2007 2:19 PM EDT
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