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Harris' "Letter to a Christian Nation" a must-read.

Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:23 AM EDT
religion, faith, christian, christianity, god, evolution, atheism, fundamentalism, stem-cell, richard-dawkins, sam-harris, daniel-dennett, robert-wright
By ScooterDMan
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I have just spent the past two hours reading Sam Harris' new book, Letter to a Christian Nation, and I am compelled to write something about it.

It's short and sweet, weighing in at only 91 pages, but it represents, I think, one of the most cogently executed arguments against organized religion I have ever read.

While I have long been a fan of recent authors like Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Robert Wright all of whom have tackled the issue head on, albeit from different scientific and philosophical perspectives, where they have failed is not in lack of persuasive evidence, rather, it has been in their consideration of their audience.

Dennett's recent book, Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon, is a book of endless insight regarding the ways in which religion developed naturally throughout the course of human cultural evolution. Likewise, Robert Wright's Non-zero: The Logic of Human Destiny offers a compelling and beautiful alternative to divinely inspired "directionality."

Dawkins, who is perhaps the most recognizable thinker of the Secular Humanist movement if only for his undying commitment and accompanying ferocity can often be a polarizing figure. In a recent documentary he filmed for the BBC, The Root of All Evil? (Highly recommended, you can watch it here.), Dawkins wages intellectual attacks on religious leaders on their own stomping grounds, inside mosques and temples in the Middle East and "Super Churches" in the American West. His examples of "non-thinking," as he calls it, ring true for those of us of similar persuasion, but as much as I revere the man, I often question his efficacy in creating meaningful dialogue.

With that said, Sam Harris has produced a book that carefully considers its audience. In fact, his letter is directed particularly at Christians who believe "at a minimum, that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that only those who accept the divinity of Jesus Christ will experience salvation after death"(viii). Harris claims that more than half of the American populace (some 150 million people) believe just this.

With that in mind, Harris, on the whole, avoids lofty philosophical or scientfic arguments that refute the existence of God, and instead uses a source of evidence that should ring truer to his audience: The Bible. His presentation of the Ten Commandments "as nothing especially compelling" is particularly relevant, as today we find ourselves torn over the proper places in which the document should be displayed. Harris critically studies each commandment, and asserts that "It is a scientific fact that moral emotions...precede any exposure to scripture" (21). We can observe primates, who are as far as we know devoid of God's divine word, acting in accordance to the Ten Commandments, paying careful attention not to murder, steal or cheat. Morals are not derived from religious texts; they are commons sense rules that keep animals like us out of potentially dangerous situations.

Throughout the book, Harris repeatedly questions the moral infallibity of the Bible by quoting verse that would seem at odds with an modern notion of "moral behavior." If moral behavior is behavior that is codified in order to ease human suffering, than the Bible fails miserably in this regard, Harris argues.

His line of reasoning is, perhaps, most prescient in his discussion of the controversy surrounding stem cell research, and the subsequent harvesting of human embryos. As this sort of research has given researchers promise that some of the world's most fatal and widespread medical afflictions could be eradicated, Harris finds the moralizing Right to be severely misguided in terms of its moral priorities.

In comparison to the 150 cells that make up a three-day-old blastocyst, which is ideal for stem cell harvesting, there are

...more than 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed have no brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they can suffer their destruction in any way at all... If you are concerned about suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with a greater moral difficulty than killing a human blastocyst (30).

Common sense examples like the one above help Harris construct an argument that asks Christians to re-evaluate the origins of their moral and ethical codes. Do we act moral to ease human suffering, or do we act moral to please God and pave our way to a blissful afterlife?

Many will scoff at this review, or attempt to reject Harris outright by responding to the examples I have provided above. You may choose to do that, but it would be unfair and irresponsible to not consider Harris arguments in full.

"Letter to a Christian Nation" provides ammunition for non-believers like me, but it is squarely targeted at Christians, both hard-line and liberal/moderate ones, the latter of which Harris takes to task as well.

This sort of book is rhetorically powerful and unequivocally clear in its warnings regarding the danger religiosity holds for a future that finds its geographical borders melting away. To say the least, it deserves a serious response.

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  • Public Discussion (78)
barndawg72

I am a Christian. I have not read the book mentioned above but I felt compelled to respond. I don't want to get pulled down into an argument starting with a foundation of faulty assumptions. God doesn't like organized religion either and organized religion's sometimes hypocritical and self-righteous behaviors. The question of faith is a personal choice impacting the heart, mind and will. Each of us should investigate the following questions - yes, using reason: Is there a God? Who was Jesus? If so, what does he want for my life? What will happen when you die?

I believe morality is written onto our hearts by a loving creator (seemingly "common sense" to us, as His creation). God wants us to prosper, meaning for us to do good and not evil - not just out of obedience but because we will be blessed if we act in harmony with God-defined morality.

When I read comments like what is above, I wonder why is the idea of a loving God in heaven such a threat to people? If he is the sovereign and loving God that I know Him to be and how he has revealed Himself to us through His bible, don't you think He can be trusted to direct our lives? I think the issue really comes down to our own desire to be god, autonomy issues, etc.

  • 12 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:25 AM EDT
Rigbee Dugane

barndawg72 - I disagree with your statement that, "God doesn't like organized religion either..." God's Son organized a religion and instituted the Sacrament. Since the Father and the Son are one in purpose, I would think that means he had His Father's blessing. I agree, though, that God doesn't want us to be hypocritical and self-righteous, whether as individuals or as groups.

ScooterDMan - I've not read the book, so I can only speak to your examples:

If science has 'proven' that "moral emotions...precede any exposure to scripture", that fits nicely with what my religion teaches - that we are born with the "Light of Christ", which some call conscience, that allows us to know right from wrong.

You claim that primates "[pay] careful attention not to murder, steal or cheat." I guess that depends on your definitions, doesn't it? Animals certainly kill each other. I've seen them take things from each other. And as far as cheating, remember that painting of dogs playing poker? ;-)

As far as human embryos go, I find your comparison of humans to flys a little disturbing. You seem to be saying that the only difference between us is the number of cells. As long as one lifeform has fewer cells than another, it is fair game. That line of thinking would seem to indicate that, given a choice between saving you and an elephant from certain death, I should choose the elephant. Personally, I would choose to save you, if only so we could continue these stimulating discussions.

I heard a interview with the author of this book on the radio just yesterday, and appreciate the chance to hear from someone who's read it. Thanks for the article.

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:13 PM EDT
ScooterDMan

Thanks for the response, barndawg. I must echo brendan's comments below that idea of god is not a threatening one for me. While I don't believe in a god myself, I fully realize why others do.

I would also say that as a thoughtful person (you wouldn't be on Newsvine if you weren't) you owe it to yourself to consider his viewpoint before judging him. I know it's unrealistic to convince people who might be inclined to disagree with him to buy his book, but maybe you could consider this short article he wrote about The Bible and morality.

It's short, and it's representative of one of the major themes in his book.

Here.

I would be interested in your response to it.

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:23 PM EDT
Adam Kemp

If he is the sovereign and loving God that I know Him to be and how he has revealed Himself to us through His bible, don't you think He can be trusted to direct our lives?

That's not what the book is about. It's about whether or not the Bible really is a good moral guide, and whether the Bible is the "origin" of morality.

  • 3 votes
#1.3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:25 PM EDT
ScooterDMan

And as far as cheating, remember that painting of dogs playing poker? ;-)

Haha. I sure do. It still hangs in my Grandmother's den, and the thought of it will still make me smile to this day.

Back to the point, however, it is certainly true that animals, like humans, on occasion steal, cheat and kill. But we must remember that this is the exception to the rule and not the norm.

One of my favorite books of all time is called "The Naked Ape," and it was written -- amid great controversy -- by a zoologist named Desmond Morris in the late 1960s. In the book, Morris describes the fascinating lengths to which primates try to avoid physical confrontation.

Apes, for instance, will puff out their chests, jump up and down and slam their hands against the ground. In doing this, they hope to scare off their opponent, and hence avoid a potentially hazardous physical conflict.

We humans do it too. When we are angry and "ready to strike," our bodies emit certain signals that will often persuade an opponent to back down. We turn bright red -- or even worse, pale white -- we become physically agitated, we breathe heavier, we yell, we flex our muscles, we levy serious threats. Again, these are all behavioural defense mechanisms that are built in to prevent us from fighting.

I know this must seem like a circuitous argument, but my point is this: It is our penchant for wanting to survive that leads us to moral rights and wrongs and not revelation from God.

As far as human embryos go, I find your comparison of humans to flys a little disturbing.

It's his example, not mine, and my summary is not adequate representation of his points.

That line of thinking would seem to indicate that, given a choice between saving you and an elephant from certain death, I should choose the elephant. Personally, I would choose to save you, if only so we could continue these stimulating discussions.

I appreciate this consideration. Even though I disagree with you, I will uphold the same courtesy to you, should you, me and elephant ever find ourselves in such a situation. :)

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:38 PM EDT
Tim Whitman

God's Son organized a religion and instituted the Sacrament

Rigbee - I disagree with your assertion here. Jesus himself was not concerned with organizing a religion. Rather, it was his followers over time who codified his teaching in the New Testament writings and developed a systematic theology from that body of thought. It wasn't until Constantine and the Council of Nicaea that you see the establishment of the Christian religion as an institution.

ScooterDMan - I'll have to pick up the book and read it. Couple quick questions though. I wasn't sure why the observance of morality among primates would nullify the ten commandments. Just because we see morality at work in nature doesn't mean it wasn't authored by God, does it? From my perspective, the opposite is true. If we can see a common moral ethic at work in animal and human behavior, in ancient religious texts and modern philosophical treatises, doesn't that indicate the existence of a Natural Law? Which then begs the question, who is the Author of this common moral ethic?

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:07 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

Just because we see morality at work in nature doesn't mean it wasn't authored by God, does it?

I don't think Harris asserts to KNOW that there is no god writing the rules so to speak, when he talks about morality in other animals...but it does negate the NEED for a god writing the rules, opening the door to free debate outside of the "well that's cause god did it" situation that tends to shut down most intelligent debate pretty fast.

  • 3 votes
#1.6 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:12 PM EDT
jjsonpDeleted
ScooterDMan

If we can see a common moral ethic at work in animal and human behavior, in ancient religious texts and modern philosophical treatises, doesn't that indicate the existence of a Natural Law? Which then begs the question, who is the Author of this common moral ethic?

Well, this depends what you are willing to accept as truth, Tim. If you accept that life on earth has evolved from simpler forms, than we can conceive of a world filled with humans that exists long before the dawn of organized religion.

While there's no surefire way of knowing when the first organized religion came to be, there is evidence of organized religion from 100,000 years ago. Humans, however, have been walking around the Earth for nearly 7 million years.

Now, no moral Christian in his right mind would argue that an orderly and civilized world could exist without the guiding hand of God's principles. In fact, many Christians see atheism as a direct threat to civilization, as they hold the fear that atheism would inspire anarchy and chaos.

This assumption is, of course, ridiculous considering that human beings had gotten along just fine for 7, 900,000 years. Is there a Natural Law? Sure, why not? Aquinas's Cardinal Precepts, on the whole, make lots of sense to me. The Cardinal Precepts include the following tenets:

Prudence
Justice
Fortitude
Temperance

I would agree that any person that pays careful attention to these four precepts will undoubtedly be more equipped for survival in a social community. But, like the first four Ten Commandments, I don't see how most of the Theological Precepts contribute anything meaningful to the concept of Natural Law. The theological ones are:

Hope
Charity
Faith

Of these three, I admit that charity makes sense in that making meaningful, selfless contributions to a community ensures that the same community is likely to support you in a time of need. But what of faith and hope?

To me, religion has played a major role in giving humanity a unified purpose. In a world when nomadic groups could live their lives and stay out of each other's way, this worked fine. In today's world, however, there is nothing unifying about it. We cling to it because it gives us an apparent moral purpose.

I argue, as does Harris, that we don't need religion to give us moral purpose. We functioned without religious instruction for 98.75% of our time as humans. Moral or Natural Law preceded the notion of God in this world. It would have had to, otherwise, what would keep humanity from self-destructing?

Of course, you could just say God did it, and this conversation would come to an abrupt end.

  • 9 votes
#1.8 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:22 PM EDT
Reply
brendan

God wants us to prosper, meaning for us to do good and not evil - not just out of obedience but because we will be blessed if we act in harmony with God-defined morality.

The converse of the statement is that we will be damned if we act against God-defined morality. I guess some people need that fear of eternal suffering to try and do good things. I would hope one day people try to do good things because they want to do good things, not out of fear of reprimand.

I wonder why is the idea of a loving God in heaven such a threat to people?

The idea is not a threat to me, the actions that people take in his name are.

I am a Christian. I have not read the book mentioned above but I felt compelled to respond.

I think that sums up religion nicely, "I have not read your view, but I feel compelled to tell you how you're wrong"

  • 14 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:07 PM EDT
Rigbee Dugane

"The converse of the statement is that we will be damned if we act against God-defined morality."

There is also the option of receiving neither damnation nor blessings.

"The idea is not a threat to me, the actions that people take in his name are."

Are you saying you don't feel threatened by the harm that is done by 'non-religious' people?

"I think that sums up religion nicely, "I have not read your view, but I feel compelled to tell you how you're wrong""

barndawg72 didn't say he hadn't read ScooterDMan's view, he said he hadn't read the book. He was responding to the article, not the book.

  • 1 vote
#2.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:45 PM EDT
brendan

Are you saying you don't feel threatened by the harm that is done by 'non-religious' people?

i think you completely missed the point. I have no problem with you or barndawg or anybody believing that there is a god or flying spaghetti monster or a big bang that created us.

I do, however, have a problem with someone blowing themselves up in the name of god, protesting a funeral in the name of god, killing doctors in the name of god, killing people who dare to say the Earth is round in the name of god, killing people who don't believe in their god in the name of god, outlawing someones personal rights in the name of god, and trying to make me live in accordance to their god's wishes, in the name of god.

I do feel threatened by that, very threatened. And I would like to know what is the harm that is done by 'non-religious' people?

And my quoting of barndawg's first sentence was not meant as a personal attack, and I apologize if it was taken that way. I was referring to the methodology of organized religion, where you are given the answers and look for questions to prove them.

  • 7 votes
#2.2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:38 PM EDT
Rigbee Dugane

Apparently my question was poorly worded. Please allow me to try again.

You say:

"I do, however, have a problem with someone blowing themselves up in the name of god, protesting a funeral in the name of god, killing doctors in the name of god, killing people who dare to say the Earth is round in the name of god, killing people who don't believe in their god in the name of god, outlawing someones personal rights in the name of god, and trying to make me live in accordance to their god's wishes, in the name of god."

My question is:

Do you not also have a problem with someone blowing themselves up, protesting a funeral, killing doctors, killing people who dare to say the Earth is round, killing people who don't believe in their god, outlawing someone's personal rights and trying to make you live in accordance to their god's wishes, as long as it's not done in the name of god? I, personally, would have a problem with those things no matter what the motivation.

As far as your question regarding the harm done by 'non-religious' people, are you really trying to suggest that all crimes are committed by those who believe in god?

  • 1 vote
#2.3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:49 PM EDT
ScooterDMan

As far as your question regarding the harm done by 'non-religious' people, are you really trying to suggest that all crimes are committed by those who believe in god?

Not all. Just most.

The United States stands as the shining example of how staunchly religious societies fail miserably to produce the kinds of utopias they promise. Consider this study from The Journal of Religion and Society from Creighton University (A Jesuit Catholic school, no less).

Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical cultures of life that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion.

Don't stop at just the quote, though. This is a scientific study with oodles of data to support its claims. I am positive it contains information that most religious people would rather ignore.

ie. "In all secular developed democracies a centuries long-term trend has seen homicide rates drop to historical lows."
and
"Life spans tend to decrease as rates of religiosity rise, especially as a function of absolute belief."

  • 5 votes
#2.4 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:50 PM EDT
Rigbee Dugane

Certainly an interesting study. I would have been more impressed had they isolated what they were studying. Correlation is not cause.

  • 1 vote
#2.5 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:45 PM EDT
Reply
praetor605

Excellent review. I am just waiting for my copy to be delivered so that I can pour through it.

  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:22 PM EDT
ScooterDMan

Thanks, praetor. It really is a quick read, but still well worth it. I had only seen Sam Harris speak before and had never read anything else he had written (aside from an article here or there). After reading this last night, I bought End of Faith off Amazon. Have you read that one?

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:24 PM EDT
praetor605

Yeah, I liked End of Faith. Most of it was excellent, though the tangent into mysticism felt out of place to me. I am also a fan of his articles (which usually pop up here on the vine).

    #3.2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:48 PM EDT
    Brad Leclerc

    I haven't gotten my copy yet either..but it's "in transit", whatever THAT means. Can't wait to read this one.

    • 1 vote
    #3.3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:55 PM EDT
    Ryan Booker

    The End of Faith is next on my list, once I've finished The Selfish Gene (Richard Dawkins).

    My list is quite long these days though. I've a lot of reading to do.

      #3.4 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:08 AM EDT
      ScooterDMan

      I've finished The Selfish Gene (Richard Dawkins).

      Such an important book. One of those books that has the ability to totally change the way you view the world.

      • 2 votes
      #3.5 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:26 AM EDT
      Ryan Booker

      Yeah. I've read a lot of Dawkins articles, but I've held off reading his books (I have them all sitting on a shelf), as I was wating for a a copy of The Selfish Gene to turn up. I want to read them in order to follow his thoughts as closely as possible.

      It finally did a week or so ago. I'm nearly done. Fantastic book and insights.

        #3.6 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:37 PM EDT
        Reply
        Jonathan D. Miller

        "at a minimum, that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that only those who accept the divinity of Jesus Christ will experience salvation after death"(viii).

        I question the accuracy of the second part of this statement, as the majority of Christians would say that it is our repentance of sin and acceptance of the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross that saves us. People can believe that Jesus is devine, but still have not accepted his sacrifice, and so becomed "saved."

        "it would be unfair and irresponsible to not consider Harris arguments in full."

        Why? Why should I as a Christian have to be responsible to consider this man's opinions. Or for that matter, why should I have to be fair to him? I respect the man, and his own beliefs, but I am under no obligation to have to give any thought to his beliefs.

        You may say that I am stubborn, closed-minded and unintelligent, and thats your right, even if it isn't very nice. I'll personally admit to being stubborn, just ask my wife. However I do have an open mind, and hold a Bachelor's Degree (if that is any sign of intelligence, which I hope it is.)

        I am, however in no way compelled to amuse Mr. Harris' ideas, as I do not see a point. I have already tested my faith, (I'm not a blind follower,) and have found it to be accurate and truthful. I respect your right to disagree, please accept my right to believe.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#4 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:47 PM EDT
        ScooterDMan

        I am, however in no way compelled to amuse Mr. Harris' ideas, as I do not see a point. I have already tested my faith, (I'm not a blind follower,) and have found it to be accurate and truthful. I respect your right to disagree, please accept my right to believe.

        I most certainly do! You may believe what you want, but as the motto of this web site suggests, I believe we are here to make each other smarter. In that vein, I thought I would try to engage believers in a discussion that asks them to question and reconsider their deepest held feelings.

        I fully expect others to demand the same sort of introspection from me, and I am willing to give it, but I respect your right to not consider this argument.

        • 5 votes
        #4.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:26 PM EDT
        Jonathan D. Miller

        Thank you for that clarification, ScooterDMan, and I do agree with you that engaging in open discussion is a good idea. In fact I believe that it is to the benefit of believers to listen to your arguments and that of Mr. Harris, in order to further understand what it is that we believe and so be better equipt to explain and defend our position.

        So now I am actually going to rescind some of what I said in my previous post, and add that I now feel compelled to do further research into the writings of the various authors you have mentioned.

        I can tell you now that doing so will not minimize my belief, I am sure that it will allow me to think of it from a different perspective, and hopefully I will grow through this process.

        Thanks!

        • 3 votes
        #4.2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:46 PM EDT
        ScooterDMan

        So now I am actually going to rescind some of what I said in my previous post, and add that I now feel compelled to do further research into the writings of the various authors you have mentioned.

        Cool. I think that's why having these conversations are important. They rarely change our opinions (though, sometimes they do), but they always strengthen our approaches to our arguments.

        If you are going to look into some of these authors, can I suggest a place to start? You might consider the BBC documentary a History of Disbelief. by Jonathan Miller.

        It documents the rise of Atheism in an educational, and non-combative way. Conversely, watching Richard Dawkins' The Root of All Evil?, may just make you angry but hey, you never know. Both are very interesting, and very relevant to this discussion.

        • 3 votes
        #4.3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:58 PM EDT
        Ryan Booker

        Jonathan, I am encouraged by your new found desire to at least read some of these books. The one further encouragement I would make is not to hold to this statement: "I can tell you now that doing so will not minimize my belief".

        I would encourage you to as much as possible approach these books with an open mind and engage them honestly. They may not change your beliefs, and that's OK (though it would be disappointing to me, ;) ), but you shouldn't approach any book with such a fierce determination not to be swayed.

        Honest engagement of the material is very important.

          #4.4 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:15 AM EDT
          Reply
          the_leander

          I like Dawkins a lot, but I think he's been thumping bible bashers for so long that he's almost become a parody of himself.

          The guy needs to take a break I think. If only to come back stronger and without having to constantly drop in phrases like "tiresome little creationists" everywhere...

          Good call on the book, I'll see if my local library can get a copy for me.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#5 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:16 PM EDT
          ScooterDMan

          I think Dawkins' work in science, especially in memetics, is some of the most important scientific work of our lifetime. Additionally, his latest book, The Ancestor's Tale, is nothing short of epic.

          It is interesting to note how his deep understanding of science and evolution has inspired him to become -- to borrow from a famous nickname -- Bertram's Bulldog.

          But I fully understand where you are coming from. Personally, I'd like him to tour America, stand in front of large crowds and ask in all of his shining British condescension: "You don't really believe that , do you?"

          But I am not sure what that would accomplish.

          • 4 votes
          #5.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:35 PM EDT
          Reply
          landerson

          Hi Scooter (or anyone else) -

          I'm looking for a third book to throw in the mix to complete my order on Amazon. I've got Letter to a Christian Nation and the End of Faith queued up. Any recommendations?

          For some background ... I'm an evangelical Christian who enjoys philosophical discussions and examining my own faith. I've been amazed by the hype around Sam's book and I'm curious to give it a read. I have high expectations for it though because of all the hype. If I don't feel uncomfortable reading it, I'll be disappointed.

          I was considering adding Breaking the Spell by Dennett or the God Delusion by Dawkins, but comments left on Amazon have left me wondering if I really want to waste my time reading either of them. I enjoy being challenged to think but I don't want to read chapter long rants about how Christians don't want to think or examine their own faith.

          He (Dennett) elegantly pleads for religions to engage in empirical self-examination to protect future generations from the ignorance so often fostered by religion hiding behind doctrinal smoke screens.

          Uh. Duh. Many Christian writers are elegantly making the same pleads. Why do I need to read his?

          "As a scientist," Richard Dawkins writes, "I am hostile to fundamentalist religion because it actively debauches the scientific enterprise. It teaches us not to change our minds, and not to want to know exciting things that are available to be known. It subverts science and saps the intellect" (p. 284).

          Sounds like he's "hanging out" with the wrong Christians. Or worse yet, maybe he's only listening to the idiots on TV. Or the ID as science idiots. I'm excited to know as much as I can about the unknown. I love change and I'm always open to changing my mind. I'm not saying his book is irrelevant to others (especially since I haven't even read it yet) — I just don't want to waste my time reading a book that assumes that because I'm a Christian that I'm an ignorant, close minded idiot. If I'm reading your book, odds are I'm not.

          So ... any recommendations for a third book to throw into the mix before I place my order? Preferably a book that talks to religious people rather than yell at or talk about them.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#6 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:37 PM EDT
          praetor605

          I was considering adding Breaking the Spell by Dennett or the God Delusion by Dawkins, but comments left on Amazon have left me wondering if I really want to waste my time reading either of them.

          You might enjoy Breaking the Spell. It is not necessarily anti-religion, but rather a call to discuss all aspects of religion in a natural and rational way.

            #6.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:46 PM EDT
            Patrick Miller

            landerson,

            I'd suggest E. O. Wilson's, The Creation: An Appeal to Save Life on Earth. It is described in this way:

            Couched in the form of letters to a Southern Baptist pastor, the Pulitzer Prizewinning entomologist pleads for the salvation of biodiversity, arguing that both secular humanists like himself and believers in God acknowledge the glory of nature and can work together to save it. The "depth and complexity of living Nature still exceeds human imagination," he asserts (somewhere between 1.5 million and 1.8 million species of plants, animals and microorganisms have been discovered to date), and most of the world around us remains unknowable, as does God. Each species functions as a self-contained universe with its own evolutionary history, its own genetic structure and its own ecological role. Human life is tangled inextricably in this intricate and fragile web. Understanding these small universes, Wilson says, can foster human life. Wilson convincingly demonstrates that such rich diversity offers a compelling moral argument from biology for preserving the "Creation." Wilson passionately leads us by the hand into an amazing and abundantly diverse natural order, singing its wonders and its beauty and captivating our hearts and imaginations with nature's mysterious ways.

            and

            Famed entomologist, humanist thinker, and cogent writer Wilson issues a forthright call for unity between religion and science in order to save the "creation," or living nature, which is in "deep trouble." Addressing his commonsensical yet ardent discourse to "Dear Pastor," he asks why religious leaders haven't made protecting the creation part of their mission. Forget about life's origins, Wilson suggests, and focus on the fact that while nature achieves "sustainability through complexity," human activities are driving myriad species into extinction, thus depleting the biosphere and jeopardizing civilization. Wilson celebrates individual species, each a "masterpiece of biology," and acutely analyzes the nexus between nature and the human psyche. In the book's frankest passages, he neatly refutes fantasies about humanity's ability to re-create nature's intricate web, and deplores the use of religious belief (God will take care of it) as an impediment to conservation. Wilson's eloquent defense of nature, insights into our resistance to environmental preservation, and praise of scientific inquiry coalesce in a blueprint for a renaissance in biology reminiscent of the technological advances engendered by the space race.

            In reviews on Amazon. Those are pretty good descriptions of the book. It fits well with your list I think, though The God Delusion is also a good choice in that framework. I agree there are lots of Christians who do not share the fundamentalist belief system, and that secular humanist scientists and thinkers tend to appeal to them or attack them. That can feel like it's lumping Christians together. I think this is predominantly unintended. There is a lot of that going around in the world today period. The notion that all Christians or Muslims are alike in their belief systems is preposterous. Wilson's book is neither condescending or pejorative. It is instead written with awe and respect. Try it.

            Anyway, I like Dawkins and Wilson. I need to read Harris's book. I have not yet.

            • 1 vote
            #6.2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:57 PM EDT
            merrydeath

            I would suggest Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren - although McLaren identifies as a Christian, his understanding of what that means is very different from the stereotypical Christian presented in Sam Harris' letter. It might be a nice balance to the other two.

            • 1 vote
            #6.3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:29 PM EDT
            landerson

            Patrick -

            Thanks for the recommendation. I'm probably over simplifying the content of the book, but I wholeheartedly agree that Christians need to be (much!) more involved with and concerned for our environment. The concept that "God will take care of it" is lazy and not biblical. Things are changing already in Christian circles and I think/hope we'll see this corrected over time.

              #6.4 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:37 PM EDT
              jjsonpDeleted
              Reply
              mcgillert

              Good review, I plan on reading this as soon as possible. I particularly liked that you mention how Harris's style differs with those of other secular scholars. It is interesting how Harris frames his argument from a Biblical vantage as opposed to a philosophical or scientific one. It's certainly a more practical approach, considering that when approaching a debate from the other side, adherents to a religion intrinsically hold the assumption that the existence of a god is fact, thus leaving objectivity at the door. Debating faith in god with someone is always a volatile and cumbersome task, thanks for this recommendation.

                Reply#7 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:40 PM EDT
                landerson

                Debating faith in god with someone is always a volatile and cumbersome task

                It's sad that this is true far too often. And it's too bad it goes both ways. It can be difficult to engage in any reasonable conversation with someone who assumes you're an idiot for having faith in God.

                • 1 vote
                #7.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 PM EDT
                Brad Leclerc

                It can be difficult to engage in any reasonable conversation with someone who assumes you're an idiot for having faith in God.

                That's exactly why I don't get along well with many atheists....extremism and unwillingness to discuss something on someone else's terms is a great way to piss everyone off and acomplish nothing, regardless of your personal beliefs.

                  #7.2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:22 PM EDT
                  mcgillert

                  It's sad that this is true far too often. And it's too bad it goes both ways. It can be difficult to engage in any reasonable conversation with someone who assumes you're an idiot for having faith in God.

                  I couldn't agree more. Nothing is more vital in civil debate than humility. When I approach such an argument I try hard to think in a way that is completely neutral and devoid of certainty. It is also very difficult to have a reasonable conversation when someone thinks you're absolutely insane, or ignorant for not having faith in god.

                    #7.3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:41 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    merrydeath

                    Thanks for the review. I truly appreciate Sam Harris' perspective and he has helped me to better understand and respect those who claim Athiesm and Agnosticism as a belief system. However, in all honesty it is those of you who I've met here on newsvine that have really helped me to 'get smarter'.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#8 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:36 PM EDT
                    ScooterDMan

                    Sounds like the Vine is doing its job. Good to hear.

                    I truly appreciate Sam Harris' perspective and he has helped me to better understand and respect those who claim Athiesm and Agnosticism as a belief system.

                    I am, perhaps, being picky here, but I would not say that atheism or agnosticism are "belief systems." They exist only as an oppositional force to divinely inspired worldviews. While many atheists like myself consider themselves Secular Humanists, there is no guiding set of principles or beliefs that give atheism any kind of structure that even remotely approaches religion.

                    • 3 votes
                    #8.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:09 PM EDT
                    Brian White

                    That is not necessarily true. Atheism is typically divided into two schools of thought: strong atheism and weak atheism (agnosticism). Weak atheism says that the existence of God can be neither proven nor disproven. Strong atheism states that there is no God. It is an actual statement about the way the universe works, and as it is impossible to prove a negative, it takes a leap of faith to just come out and say that that is simply the way things are.

                      #8.2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:43 PM EDT
                      Brad Leclerc

                      Brian, it's not impossible to prove a negative....it's impossible to prove an untestable theory. Also the difference between "strong" and "weak" atheism is among to most absurd ideas I've heard about atheism...and I hear it often. Yes some atheists say "there is no god" as though they know that for a fact (which of course they don't), but even that statement would change instantly in most if they came across some bit of proof for god (ANY god). To say it takes a leap of faith to NOT believe in something without proof that thing exists is disturbingly strange to me.

                      It would be like saying it's an act of faith to not believe in the Easter bunny, or Santa, or Ra, or underpants gnomes. Faith is a believe based on a lack of evidence to the contrary (or sometimes actually despite existing evidence to the contrary), it is not a LACK of believe in something that's existence cannot be tested either way.

                      • 1 vote
                      #8.3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:54 PM EDT
                      Ryan Booker

                      Atheism is not a belief system. Atheists put God in the same bucket as Zeus, The Tooth Fairy and unicrons. i.e. There is nothing that gives us any indication or reason to even entertain their existence so we don't.

                      I don't have any problem saying any of these things don't exist. Some argue that the only rational stance on them is agnosticism, but given that that logically extends to any absurdity, as long as it can't be disproved, I think that it is the height of irrational thought. Or at the very least a complete waste of time and effort. However, were evidence presented that unicorns walked the earth, my view would of course change, and they would no longer be in my absurdities bucket.

                      I also think it quite silly that the term "atheist" even exists. It defines a non believer in terms of belief, which is obviously quite ridiculous. No one is ever defined as an aAstrologist or aunicronist.

                      • 1 vote
                      #8.4 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:44 AM EDT
                      Vincent Grayson

                      Unicron? Didn't he create the transformers?

                      • 2 votes
                      #8.5 - Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:49 AM EDT
                      Brian White

                      Yes some atheists say "there is no god" as though they know that for a fact (which of course they don't), but even that statement would change instantly in most if they came across some bit of proof for god (ANY god).

                      You seem to be saying that all atheists are weak atheists. This is completely not the case. I could not be convinced of god's existence by any means at this point.

                        #8.6 - Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:56 AM EDT
                        Brad Leclerc

                        even that statement would change instantly in most if they came across some bit of proof for god

                        I know there are some that would never be convinced of the existence of a god, no matter what. I would put them in the same category as people that would never be convinced that there is no god, no matter what proof might be shown. That is one of the reasons "atheist" is not enough of a descriptor to explain what someone thinks about the issue.

                        Extremism is a double edged sword, and both ends cut equally deep.

                          #8.7 - Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:29 PM EDT
                          Vincent Grayson

                          I can't fathom how *any* person can honestly say nothing would convince them of God's existence.

                          If God exists, and were to manifest the many powers he does during the OT, I think most people would say "Ok, fine, you exist".

                          Of course, I also cannot fathom believing he does exist until such a display takes place, so, I guess I just don't understand a whole lot of people.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.8 - Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:42 PM EDT
                          Adam Kemp

                          Maybe it relates to this quote from Arthur C. Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

                          I knew a guy once who said that the only way he could be convinced that God existed was if he was actually given all of God's power for a short time. Only then could he really "know" that it was God. I thought that was interesting.

                          Honestly, I can't answer the question about what it would take to convince me. I just don't know until I'm confronted with the potential evidence whether it would be convincing or not. It's too hard to imagine those kinds of situations and realistically predict my reaction.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.9 - Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:59 PM EDT
                          Brad Leclerc

                          Honestly, I can't answer the question about what it would take to convince me. I just don't know until I'm confronted with the potential evidence whether it would be convincing or not. It's too hard to imagine those kinds of situations and realistically predict my reaction.

                          I feel the same way, and it's the fact that I can't think of what the proof might be that stops me from completely ruling out the possibility that I may be convinced by something in the future.

                            #8.10 - Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:19 PM EDT
                            Brian White

                            To me, it would be a far simpler explanation to assume I was either insane or in some kind of Matrix like simulated reality than to believe there was actually a god manifesting supernatural powers. The Christian idea of god is logically self-contradictory on several levels. If I were to accept his existence I would have to chuck logic and science as well, and at that point it makes more sense to think that I'm not actually seeing reality.

                              #8.11 - Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:45 PM EDT
                              Brad Leclerc

                              Assumptions based on what would be simpler instead of what would be accurate is a dangerous logical road to go down all on it's own....but that's probably not something to discuss in this thread :P

                                #8.12 - Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:52 PM EDT
                                Reply
                                merrydeath

                                Thanks ScooterDMan. In fact, you are not being picky at all. I stumbled with wording there for precisely the reasons you describe. I have only recently been introduced to the concepts of Secular Humanism and I hadn't yet felt comfortable using it to describe anything. Once again, I've gotten smarter here. :)

                                I have spent the past hour writing a comment in response to my thoughts on this topic. When it grew to 3 paragraphs, I decided that it was a bit unwieldy and on a slightly different topic for a comment on this article. With apologies to you and hopes that you will check it out - I will be putting up an article shortly that I think will shed some light on how I understand the topic.

                                  Reply#9 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:15 PM EDT
                                  merrydeath

                                  this was in response to 8.1

                                    #9.1 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:18 PM EDT
                                    ScooterDMan

                                    With apologies to you and hopes that you will check it out - I will be putting up an article shortly that I think will shed some light on how I understand the topic.

                                    I'll be there. Look forward to it.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #9.2 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:40 PM EDT
                                    Pamela Drew

                                    I just wanted to complement the review, the thinking that went into it and all the thoughtful commentary sharing many views. It has all been very enlightening. Wonderful reading and thread Scooterdman, well done.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #9.3 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:24 PM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    Grim Truth

                                    The topic of religion is one that has interested me for a long time. I myself am not associated with any religion in particular, but growing up around people who are has had me in many a religious debates. This article, and the book it speeks of interests me. I'm not anti-christianity, or any religion really, but I am anti-christian... To explain that, I have no problem with the religion itself, I feel that religion is simply a set of beliefs that one lives by and is subject to their own choosing. I do however have a problem with those who push their beliefs on another person (me in particular), and people who are completly closed minded that they can't fathom any other opinion, and thus start arguements because of it. I have many examples of this, and when I put the finishing touches on an article I'm writing, I'll post it. Nevertheless, I read this, and the opinions discussed because of it with great interest, and I wanted to reply to one or two things that were said.

                                    "I wonder why is the idea of a loving God in heaven such a threat to people?"

                                    I wouldn't say it is a threat. Not to me anyways. I simply choose not to believe that some omnipitant being that has never actually proven its existance controls or is responsible for the world around me. That lends itself to people doing things under the cover of "God's will". It was not God's will for them to kill people, and any God who would have that as its will is not a God worth following. Not to mention that there are many different God's, so what makes this particular one right? What about Zeus? The Norse Gods like Loki? They were once considered Gods too, by people alive well before us. Have their existance been proven wrong? Or right? Has the modern day God been proven wrong? Proven right?

                                    Someone, I think the same person, said that God's son (Jesus) created Christianity. Now, Im no expert, but I'm fairly certain that he didn't so much create it, as live his own life by it, and then his followers proceeded to create the religion. Could be wrong, don't quote me.

                                    I have a lot more to say, but I'll save it for my own post. Look for it in a few days, The Grim Truth: Religion

                                    • 1 vote
                                    Reply#10 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:21 PM EDT
                                    Mike from Phoenix

                                    I too am a huge Sam Harris fan and am looking forward to the new book. I have read his previous book and thoroughly enjoyed it. For the folks looking for other books to read I would recommend Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World (in my opinion one of the best ever written on skeptical thought) or Michael Shermer's The Science of Good and Evil.

                                    I am very new to this website, but I have to say this is one of the most interesting exchanges of ideas I have encountered. I appreciate all the thoughtful commentary from the posters. It is very refreshing to read comments from religious people who have opinions based on more than just faith. I am used to people who define their lives by their faith and refuse to consider any ideas which are contrary to the Bible.

                                    I have been frustrated in the past by the contention by Christians that it is impossible to live a moral life without religion. I believe morality is a natural concept and that natural selection has predisposed humans to behave in a moral manner. Humans are fundamentally weak at the individual level. A human could not survive long in the wild without a social structure for support. We have to live in social networks to survive and we need morality to live in groups. Survival of the fittest selects for moral behaviour, not violence or selfishness.

                                    Thanks for a great review and I look forward to the book.

                                      Reply#11 - Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:25 PM EDT
                                      ScooterDMan

                                      I have been frustrated in the past by the contention by Christians that it is impossible to live a moral life without religion. I believe morality is a natural concept and that natural selection has predisposed humans to behave in a moral manner. Humans are fundamentally weak at the individual level. A human could not survive long in the wild without a social structure for support. We have to live in social networks to survive and we need morality to live in groups. Survival of the fittest selects for moral behaviour, not violence or selfishness.

                                      Very well said. Welcome to Newsvine!

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #11.1 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:46 AM EDT
                                      Ryan Booker

                                      Hey Mike. I think you should read The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins.

                                      :)

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #11.2 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:48 AM EDT
                                      Reply
                                      pseudonihilist

                                      Those interested in Sam Harris may want to check out his essay in the Sep 18 LA Times: Head-in-the-Sand Liberals: Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists.

                                      http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-harris18sep18,0,1897169.story

                                      excerpts:

                                      [snip] But my correspondence with liberals has convinced me that liberalism has grown dangerously out of touch with the realities of our world — specifically with what devout Muslims actually believe about the West, about paradise and about the ultimate ascendance of their faith.

                                      On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right.

                                      This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that "liberals are soft on terrorism." It is, and they are.

                                      A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world — for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a "war on terror." We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise.

                                      This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims. But we are absolutely at war with those who believe that death in defense of the faith is the highest possible good, that cartoonists should be killed for caricaturing the prophet and that any Muslim who loses his faith should be butchered for apostasy.

                                      Unfortunately, such religious extremism is not as fringe a phenomenon as we might hope. Numerous studies have found that the most radicalized Muslims tend to have better-than-average educations and economic opportunities. [snip]

                                      At its most extreme, liberal denial has found expression in a growing subculture of conspiracy theorists who believe that the atrocities of 9/11 were orchestrated by our own government. A nationwide poll conducted by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University found that more than a third of Americans suspect that the federal government "assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East;" 16% believe that the twin towers collapsed not because fully-fueled passenger jets smashed into them but because agents of the Bush administration had secretly rigged them to explode.

                                      Such an astonishing eruption of masochistic unreason could well mark the decline of liberalism, if not the decline of Western civilization. There are books, films and conferences organized around this phantasmagoria, and they offer an unusually clear view of the debilitating dogma that lurks at the heart of liberalism: Western power is utterly malevolent, while the powerless people of the Earth can be counted on to embrace reason and tolerance, if only given sufficient economic opportunities. [snip]

                                      The truth is that there is every reason to believe that a terrifying number of the world's Muslims now view all political and moral questions in terms of their affiliation with Islam. This leads them to rally to the cause of other Muslims no matter how sociopathic their behavior. This benighted religious solidarity may be the greatest problem facing civilization and yet it is regularly misconstrued, ignored or obfuscated by liberals.

                                      Given the mendacity and shocking incompetence of the Bush administration — especially its mishandling of the war in Iraq — liberals can find much to lament in the conservative approach to fighting the war on terror. Unfortunately, liberals hate the current administration with such fury that they regularly fail to acknowledge just how dangerous and depraved our enemies in the Muslim world are. [snip]

                                      We are entering an age of unchecked nuclear proliferation and, it seems likely, nuclear terrorism. There is, therefore, no future in which aspiring martyrs will make good neighbors for us. Unless liberals realize that there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine enemies.

                                      Increasingly, Americans will come to believe that the only people hard-headed enough to fight the religious lunatics of the Muslim world are the religious lunatics of the West. Indeed, it is telling that the people who speak with the greatest moral clarity about the current wars in the Middle East are members of the Christian right, whose infatuation with biblical prophecy is nearly as troubling as the ideology of our enemies. Religious dogmatism is now playing both sides of the board in a very dangerous game.

                                      While liberals should be the ones pointing the way beyond this Iron Age madness, they are rendering themselves increasingly irrelevant. Being generally reasonable and tolerant of diversity, liberals should be especially sensitive to the dangers of religious literalism. But they aren't.

                                      The same failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe, where the dogma of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists. [snip]

                                      • 3 votes
                                      Reply#12 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:02 AM EDT
                                      dhtunes

                                      What you are calling "common sense examples" (like the fly to embryo comparison) don't seem to be common sense at all. They seem to be conclusions drawn directly from a materialistic philosophy -- claiming that the only difference between humans and flies is that humans are more complex. That is only true if you are a materialist -- or of course if materialism is true. What good does it do to criticize the beliefs of someone else from your point of view? That's precisely the same as a Christian criticizing an atheist for not believing in God because the Bible clearly says that God exists. That's precisely what irks atheists and secular humanists about Christians!

                                      To presuppose that your position is a neutral is presupposing too much. Is not any primary belief that creates logical consequences a "belief system" in some sense? Believing in God has logical consequences. Not believing in God has logical consequences. If we're just speaking in these terms, how is one a belief system and the other not?

                                      And on the topic of morality being essential to nature and not originating in the Bible (primarily the Ten Commandments), why would anyone believe in the morality of the Ten Commandments as Christians if they were inconsistent with what we observe in the world? The Bible, in fact, confesses that morality predates its own writing. Morality observed in nature is not a proof of anything. If God created the world and He is a moral God, we should expect to see morality in the world. If the world were created by naturalistic means such as evolution by way of natural selection, then we should expect to see morality develop as a result of those natural processes. If we believe in God as the creator, then we could see Harris' ideas as supporting the idea of God by observing how we can see something of God (morality) by observing nature.

                                      What I'm saying is that it is of no value to speak of morality when what's really the issue is the ideas presupposed that have led to the conclusions we have come to by observing the world.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#13 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:03 PM EDT
                                      Brad Leclerc

                                      They seem to be conclusions drawn directly from a materialistic philosophy -- claiming that the only difference between humans and flies is that humans are more complex.

                                      Can you give another measurable or testable difference?

                                        Reply#14 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:24 PM EDT
                                        Paddy Ryan

                                        Flies don't use Newsvine (I think :-)

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #14.1 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:26 PM EDT
                                        Brad Leclerc

                                        Well, that's not generally testable....although maybe the newsvine staff could get an answer? :P

                                          #14.2 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:27 PM EDT
                                          Ryan Booker

                                          To Paddy and dhtunes,

                                          Neither do blastocyst. The comparison wasn't made to a human. It was made to a human blastocyst. I bunch of cells with nothing even approaching a brain or consciousness.

                                            #14.3 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:45 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            dhtunes

                                            flies don't make art and music

                                              Reply#15 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:20 PM EDT
                                              Adam Kemp

                                              Some apes do.

                                                #15.1 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:09 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                dhtunes

                                                I suppose your starting point (materialism or non-materialism) would be the deciding factor about whether or not a blastocyst constitutes human life -- but the point is taken that the comparison was between a blastocyst and a fly and what each is capable of --

                                                If you are a materialist, then you don't believe in a soul or spirit in the traditional sense. So I suppose, according to that philosophy, there really is no difference between a fly and a blastocyst. But if there is such a thing as a soul, then regardless of complexity (a dog is far more complex than a blastocyst), the early human life is far more valuable, regardless of it's development and consciousness.

                                                Oh, and Rukh... what do you mean specifically by "testable"?

                                                  Reply#16 - Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:04 PM EDT
                                                  Mick-110279

                                                  First, read the book (it's only 91 pages). Next, think about the book. Then write about the book.

                                                    Reply#17 - Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:49 PM EDT
                                                    ScooterDMan

                                                    Not a bad idea.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #17.1 - Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:24 AM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    kevi meru

                                                    Sam Harris committed a grave error by comparing instinctual primates with reasoning human beings. His zeal for the myth of evolution has blinded him to see the relevance of the Ten Commandments. Animals have no reasoning power like humans do; that is the reason only humans can understand morality, justice, good and evil.

                                                    Without the Ten Commandments giving guidance to human civilization, the world would still be a barbaric place and humans may not have reached the level we are today (and enables people like Harris to express their learnings as well as expose their ignorance).

                                                    Look at India, a nation deprived of the Ten Commandments for centuries: it is still struggling with supertitions, for which it has fallen behind the West --- otherwise Indians have no less brain.

                                                    I am disturbed by people like Harris and Dawkins who enjoys all the wonderful benefits the Bible has brought to the nations, and yet ungratefulyy --- and ignorantly --- attacks God and the Bible. Anyone who does not recognize the contribution of the Bible to Western civilizations is in some ways still ungrateful and ignorant. They ought to know that in many ways, the greatness of America is due to applied Christianity.

                                                      Reply#18 - Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:05 AM EST
                                                      Ryan Booker

                                                      I love satire.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #18.1 - Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:32 AM EST
                                                      ScooterDMan

                                                      Animals have no reasoning power like humans do; that is the reason only humans can understand morality, justice, good and evil.

                                                      It has been observed by scientists studying groups of primates that most put on elaborate displays of masculinity when a confrontation becomes imminent. They will jump in the air, pound their fists on the ground, bear their teeth and yell angrily.

                                                      Why do they do all this? Because, though they do not have reasoning capabilities as nuanced as ours, they are smart enough to understand the consequences of their actions. A male baboon knows that if it immediately engages in combat, the result could be deadly. Instead, most conflicts are resolved through showmanship — with one scaring off another.

                                                      I think you analyzed your own tendencies in confrontational situations, you would find that you do many of the same things. Faced with a fight, you'll note that blood will begin to rush to your head, your heart will begin to beat faster and your breathing will become heavy. Your body is readying itself for combat.

                                                      But then, just as those facilities begin to take control, you'll notice yourself doing everything possible to avoid a fight. You'll lower your eyebrows, puff out your chest, roll up your sleeves, issue threatening warnings to your opponent.

                                                      Why do you do these things? Because, you, like the baboon, have a keen understanding the consequences of striking someone. You say evolution is a myth, but it actually isn't that difficult to observe it in the world. You really just have to look.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #18.2 - Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:33 AM EST
                                                      ScooterDMan

                                                      Without the Ten Commandments giving guidance to human civilization, the world would still be a barbaric place and humans may not have reached the level we are today (and enables people like Harris to express their learnings as well as expose their ignorance).

                                                      What level would that be? Have you seen crime statistics in America? Studies have shown that secular democracies are far more advanced in terms of "societal health." Have a look at this recent article from the Jesuit Catholic Creighton University.

                                                      Here.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #18.3 - Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:36 AM EST
                                                      ScooterDMan

                                                      Look at India, a nation deprived of the Ten Commandments for centuries: it is still struggling with supertitions, for which it has fallen behind the West --- otherwise Indians have no less brain.

                                                      I am not sure what you mean. Maybe you could elaborate? Are insinuating that Americans don't have superstitions?

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #18.4 - Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:38 AM EST
                                                      Reply
                                                      ScooterDMan

                                                      Anyone who does not recognize the contribution of the Bible to Western civilizations is in some ways still ungrateful and ignorant.

                                                      You seem to be suggesting that morals originate from the Bible, but it seems you haven't really thought about this point that much. The Bible text is only a few thousand years old, and we have been walking upright for close to 8 million years. Surely you are not suggesting that humans were without morals and ethics right up until the day the Bible was "written."

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      Reply#19 - Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:41 AM EST
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